Here is another thing about Burk’s view of hell that Robin Parry’s response just reminded me of. To say that finite creatures can commit infinite sins against an infinite God seems to say that God is infinitely offended and infinitely “hurt” or infinitely affected by what his creatures do/did.
Tag Archives: eschatology
Reading John G. Stackhouse’s response to Burk on hell in the Counterpoint Series. Burk talks about infinite sin committed against an infinite God. I agree with John on this point. There is NOWHERE in Scripture that says this. Nothing wrong with deductive reasoning but that’s not going to “cut it.” There needs to be more in terms of a more positive argument. That is, one should show that it is patently true that an infinite sin committed against an infinite God is the case. I myself have always had some problem with sin being infinite. Just didn’t sit right with me. The other issue has to do with adding the problem Stackhouse brings up with regard to Burk not realizing his own a-priori emotionalism not being at play within his own beliefs about God and eschatology.
On the way to visiting my buddy Paul Joseph in Brantford this past weekend, I was thinking of this issue of inclusion again. We talked about it while we did some running around to get some errands done while I was there.
There is a website called “Love Without Agenda” run by Jimmy Spencer Jr.
“Love Without Agenda” is inclusionary in their core set of values, and one of the team members, in his bio, speaks of it in a way one speaks of Jesus or the Gospel. Here is what he says:
“JACOB WENTZEL / DEVELOPMENT WRITING & FORMATION My name Jacob Wentzel and I am a 25-year old native of the Chicago area who now resides in Bucktown. Since graduating from Loyola University Chicago with bachelor’s degrees in English and French literature in 2012,1 have been working at an office job, acquiring a masters of liberal arts at the University of Chicago, and pulsing, patiently, to become part of something significant, here and now, for the welfare of humanity. At the core of our initiative is the message of unconditional inclusion and equality within the human experience, which has also become the core belief of my personal philosophy From the start, I was raised to get along with all types of people, and was even particularly attracted to the misfits who were excluded by the mainstream. Then, about 12 years ago, when Spencer became my youth pastor, I found out what happens when the message of inclusion is applied to the place from which is should most radiate, but which more often practices exclusion: the Christian Church. As Spencer took his message of inclusion beyond the Church and as his initiative evolved over the years, I did whatever I could to help, including editing articles and essays in exchange for chorizo burritos. Meanwhile, I also ingested the message of inclusion through my pursuit of the liberal arts, which taught me the beauty and truth of a polyphonic community in which no voice is excluded or even hushed. As one who is constantly reflecting upon my immediate community and looking to solve its problems, I am eager to combat the evil of exclusion and to give a voice to all walks of life.”
I’m going to chalk some of Wentzel’s enthusiasm to age (he seems to have a world/global vision for he speaks about the “welfare of humanity” and combatting exclusion for all walks of life) but you can see how much inclusion means to Wentzel. It’s as if it isn’t even questioned. He LOVES inclusion. It’s almost as if he is having an orgasm. It’s as if this is what he lives for. THIS IS THE GOSPEL!
It’s understandable that some would think this way as they believe that Jesus was all about the marginalized. But let’s face it. Jesus had some that were closest to him while excluding others. And ALL of us don’t include EVERYONE in our close circle and we do it for several reasons. Some because of differences of opinion, some because of culture, sex, age, interests, etc. As a matter of fact, it is physically and humanly impossible to include everyone in our lives. And it isn’t “sinful” to not do so for the reasons given.
The modern Christian belief is that in the consummation of the ages we will all be loving everybody in Christ. There will be no hate. Everyone will be included. Perfect love will abound. How we come to that point is another post but for now, let’s simply accept that that will be the case. So, in the mean time, in the “all-ready-not-yet that we now live in, we are supposed to work toward that vision. In other words, we are supposed to be loving towards others NOW, based upon a future eschatology.
But let’s think of many of those reasons mentioned above as to why we don’t include others. And let’s think of this on a very personal relational level between the sexes. Say a person, wants to date someone but that other person doesn’t find them attractive for various reasons. Let’s just go with looks as the surface reason. Question: The person who rejects someone on that basis–is their negativity toward said person sin? I mean, it certainly doesn’t fall within the eschatological vision of where we love everyone. Most of us would say it isn’t sin even though it is VERY exclusionary. They simply are not attracted to the other person on a physical level and it is that lack of attraction (negativity) that is my main concern here. There could be other reasons. Economic. One person is poor while the other is not. That makes cause for lack of attraction. Negativity again. Is it not sin to exclude for those reasons? Is not that lack of attraction sin? Again, on a personal level, not many of us would say it is sin. We just accept that this is the way the world works. That this is the way of the world. And that we simply want to get on with our lives and live our lives from day to day.
If we are all ONE at some future point then I would suspect that whatever negativity that one has for excluding someone on a personal relational level ie., why they can’t be lovers, or included in their inner circle would not be the case at that point. ALL of that should be erased. Yet we accept that “negativity” now for personal reasons but not for thinking generally about Christian love and ethics for and towards all humankind as is the case in Wentzel’s spiel (to be exclusionary is the epitome of evil!).
The whole inclusionary vision, based as it is on what I think is a over-realized eschatology doesn’t work in the real world–the here and now. It doesn’t work between groups and it certainly doesn’t work on the personal level.
Maybe it is the case that the so-called “negativity” is not negative. Maybe that is the way we are wired and so we might want to tweak what we mean by inclusion and Christian love a little. That is, when we think of inclusion, maybe it should be viewed as all peoples, ethnicities, races, groups, etc, are simply included in the beatific vision. Either way, right now, it IS the case that we discriminate and don’t included on MANY levels.
One of the problems I’ve had with “dying with dignity” is this question of autonomy. But first let me say that I really don’t like the terminology. When someone asks someone else to assist in their death they ask no small thing. It is to actually KILL ANOTHER. HUMAN. BEING. for, in most cases to end their suffering. Now, if we are willing to assist someone to kill themselves, then it seems that this claim (to kill them for the reason of ending their suffering) has such a powerful sway or ENOUGH sway over us such that the question should be asked about restricting such a killing to those who are competent fully autonomous determinative agents. Surely there are people who suffer greatly but are not competent enough to request someone to kill them. But there are some who don’t suffer greatly, and ARE competent ENOUGH to request help but whose pain is not that great. In other words, there is the problem of the measurement of pain as well as the problem of the expansion of candidates such that folks who were once thought not “worthy” of such assistance are now suitable for it (which is actually what is presently before the courts and what the debate is coming down to).
This really should concern us as a society. As autonomous individuals we seek not only to define our own destinies through the killing of ourselves, when and how (an unbiblical eschatology but an eschatology nonetheless) by the way) but we seek to to be little messiahs in defining the destinies of others.